What's wrong with voting?

There are calls everywhere for HRC to drop out of the race, and there is much ado about them.  My question is, if Obama and everyone else thinks they've won, then what is the harm in letting the remaining states and territories vote?

As so often cited, the "math" is prohibitive for Clinton, and now, Obama says he can win this without Florida and Michigan. He's already planned to make an announcement that he's won (one metric of course) before everyone has voted.  How can this not be seen as pressure on the supers and everyone else to just kick HRC out?

If Obama, his supporters, and surrogates are confident in their position, and their "steady stream" of SD's are showing up, again, why are they asking her to leave now?

Turns out that FOX news asked this question directly. Here's a Ms. Flavia, an Obama supporter defending the campaign and McGovern's call for HRC to drop out.  

She is right about McGovern, but maybe not in the way she intended. Does McGovern see a part of himself in Obama?



Display:


Hillary said it would be over (1.33 / 3)

on Feb 4.
Then she stated moving the goalposts.
by parahammer on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:43:54 PM EST

Wow (2.00 / 2)

you all are astonishingly good at repeating catch phrases and memes... that takes talent.
by linc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you think she didn't say it? (none / 0)


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow (none / 0)

So does denying reality.


by venician on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:19:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

Nothing's wrong with it and in fact there have been very few calls since Tuesday for Clinton to drop out. She'll have to decide for herself when she wants to go.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:44:18 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

I agree...since Leahy went off the reservation, very few people have actually called for her to drop out. In fact, people like Pelosi specifically said she should stay in after last Tuesday. No one's trying to push her out, even if we do want this thing done with.

The problem isn't with her staying in the race, it's with what she's saying while she's still in. If everyone seems to acknowledge that she very, very slim odds of winning, she should be running a positive campaign these last few weeks: I care about the little guy, my policies will help you, etc.

Instead, her campaign is still bashing Obama as unelectable (hence the minor outrage over the "hard-working white people" comment). It's that perceived tearing-down of Obama that's really bugging us. Go out on a high note. Tout yourself. Convince people that your policies are better, not that Obama will lose.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:48:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly right (none / 0)

Superdelegates, in my opinion, have been sitting on the sideline waiting for the vote to play out, because so long as the illusion of contest continued, voter registration and voter interest would increase.

But the price of their remaining on the sideline now is that Hillary stop the politics of color arousal. Hillary, as you say, must cease putting Obama down, or else I predict that PLEOs are going to swarm in and shut her down by overwhelmingly endorsing Obama.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly right (2.00 / 1)

Heh...even a superdelegate swarm wouldn't force her out. She's staying in at least through the end of the primary season pretty much no matter what. There's less than a month left anyway.

As others have pointed out, it's actually good that she's staying in, because it would've been embarrassing if/when Obama got pulped in WV and KY without her even being in the race.

This way, at least he still has a chance to grab a few more states like MT, SD and OR before it's all said and done. And hopefully registration and voter enthusiasm in these last states will still blossom despite the race winding down.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly right (2.00 / 1)

she's castrating? She moves goal posts? She's that amazing. If he can't stand up to her, what makes him think he'll be able to stand up to another man? He's started off offending old people, like he offended girls.   Got to hand it to him, he has a fifty state strategy. But this diary asks a great question, if he's won why can't the remaining states vote. But if he hasn't won, then there may be a very good reason to stop it before something changes the outcome.  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Exactly right (none / 0)

Hillary cannot win now unless Obama suffers some catastrophic collapse. If she wants to continue, fine. She shouldn't be doing the GOP's work for them, though. Nobody is saying that any votes should be cancelled.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Once is enought (2.00 / 1)

Did anyone ask Teddy Kennedy to drop out of the race in such a vocal and passive aggressive manner? And hell, he was challenging a sitting president and it didn't happen. It is arrogant and it reflects quite poorly on any Obama supporter in the media or elsewhere.
by linc on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:08:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once is enought (none / 0)

Well, there was no 24-hour news media or blogs back then. I actually do wonder what would've happened had that all existed back then.

But again, no one's asking her to drop out. This is straw man stuff. Obama, his surrogates and other party honchos have treated her with kid gloves and specifically said she should NOT drop out. (I'm not saying they don't want her to, but they're not calling on her to do it.)


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once is enought (2.00 / 1)

yes, they have, they give her permission to stay but only if she makes nice. That's the same thing, only nastier, more of a dismissive put down.  They're being nice to the little lady? (I don't think so)  


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once is enought (none / 0)

Hillary has a responsibility to her fellow democrats now. She has a responsibility to conduct herself in a way that promotes the democratic party's chances in November, instead of diminishing those chances. And democrats have a right to hold her to these expectations.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:04:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once is enought (2.00 / 1)

so's she being told, but a lot of loser men.  She conducts herself fine and the contest isn't over.   I think she knows her responsibilities, and far better than the  others.  She doesn't need to be lectured by Teddy, who seems to have lost his bearings.  Or any other man, for pity's sake.


Hillary - alternative energy
by anna shane on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Once is enought (1.00 / 1)

Bullshit. On Wednesday, after losing NC and barely winning Indiana, and with virtually everybody in her campaign acknowledging in private that it's over, she comes out talking about hard working, white americans. So yes, somebody needs to tell her to knock that shit off.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 06:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

I'd like her to stay in at least thru May 20, and really all the way to the last contest if she pleases.


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:27:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

Fox News?


by cherrygarcia on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:44:30 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

I see no problem with continued voting, but it IS possible to win before everyone has voted, and there IS only one metric that matters, and that's delegates.

So, yes, Hillary should carry on if she wants to.  I just wish the campaign would take on a more positive tone (or anti-McCain...makes no difference), so that we begin unifying the party, which will help no matter which candidate becomes the nominee.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:45:00 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

You don't get it; everyone is okay with her continuing with the election.  The problem is the way she is going about it, with her "white" people talk.  If she can be respectful and stop attacking our nominee people wouldn't have a problem.


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:46:38 PM EST

Re: White voters (2.00 / 1)

This happens to be a demographic category that is being tracked by all polling organizations. All Hillary is doing is describing the elephant in the middle of the living room that EVERYBODY SEES!


by pan230oh on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:26:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: White voters (none / 0)

I agree, but it came out wrong and if she just clarify her remark reasonable people will let it go.  Notice the Obama people haven't touched it.


I would say at this point we're starting to see a little desperation on the part of the woman who I support... NY Governor Paterson
by obamaovermccain on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nothing (none / 0)

Feel free to vote.  

We were able to vote when Clinton lead in the SD race by 100+ SD's, we can still vote with Obama leading in SD's.  

We now just have a better idea of where the end game leads.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:51:11 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 0)

I've never advocated that we somehow call off the remaining primaries.

Letting people hope that she can make up 28 points with 30 seconds left on the clock is incredibly dishonest, though.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:51:16 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 2)

Don't be naive. Voting provides important information, unlike Obama's "hope" rhetoric.


by soyousay on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:55:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

And it's borderline unethical to ask people who have little money to contribute. I don't care about them getting money from folks who have plenty, but I get upset when I see people say that they will have to eat ramen because they sent her $25 this week.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:55:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

why? people are free to do what they wish with their own money.


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (1.00 / 1)

It's unethical to pretend you can win in order to get the donations you need to pay back a series of loans you made to your own campaign.

Shows a lack of truth in advertising.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:59:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

So basically, any money raised by anyone other than Clinton or OBama in this campaign has been unethical? I mean did anyone really believe Kucinich, Dodd and Biden could win this thing at any point?


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

Not the same.  None of them acted like she is now.  None of them took the time to make begging for donations a central thrust of the campaign.

And yes, that's what she's been doing.  Literally asking for donations when she gives big speeches.  Saying she can't compete unless you contribute.

The dishonest part is stating or implying that giving money will help her compete or win.  Most of the money isn't going to go there.  It's going to repay her debts.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:04:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 2)

Here's the answer: The voting results; that's what's wrong with voting...The results tell the truth when it comes to electability and many can't handle the truth.


by soyousay on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:52:37 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

Exactly. Obama leads now in every possibly conceivable metric, which comes DIRECTLY from the primary votes. Yet the Clinton supporters still want to argue about vague notions of electability and improbable superdelegate scenarios. It's too bad the voters have spoken.


by SupremeCourt on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:56:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reality check (2.00 / 0)

If Clinton arrived at the convention with a majority of pledged delegates, and super delegates swung the nomination to Obama, face it, Clinton supporters would never accept this as a legitimate result.

What's keeping this race alive is the notion that superdelegates can swing the nom to Clinton based upon marginal considerations of electability.  

Just apply the golden rule.  Clinton supporters would never accept it if this standard were applied to their candidate.  There is no argument that Obama is unelectable.  


by IncognitoErgoSum on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

The Republicans want this race to continue for as long as possible, and it's really easy to see why.  The longer it goes on, the greater  are the chances that the Dems won't unify the party for November, and the more likely it is that McCain won't get much time in the spotlight (the GOP understands that plenty of conservatives don't like him).

I don't think there are many people at this point who think Clinton should drop out before the last primary is run.  Once this happens, though, if Clinton's chances for securing the nomination plummet to zero, she should drop out.  The Dems will need the two months to unify the party and organize the convention.

And seriously--all one needs to know this is true is just see how much FOX News and similar outlets are pushing for the Dem race to continue.  People like Limbaugh and Hannity are the original concern trolls.  C'mon, that's obvious.


by IncognitoErgoSum on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:54:21 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

The Republicans want this race to continue for as long as possible,
So do I.

The longer it goes on, the greater  are the chances that the Dems won't unify the party for November
That's not my problem, I'm supporting the candidate that I think would be the best president, I'm not responsible for the f'd-up primary system the Democrats created. Chalk it up as lesson learned.
Once this happens, though, if Clinton's chances for securing the nomination plummet to zero, she should drop out.
She has the right to continue on until the convention if she wants to, that's fine by me.


by soyousay on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

Voting is fine.

"Hard-working WHITE PEOPLE" when you're campaigning in WV is a dog whistle, that's not fine.

and, by implication, dissing the strongest most loyal contingent in the democractic party is not fine.


My mom believed in Jesus, the Pope and FDR..... Just not necessarily in that order.
by WashStateBlue on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:55:27 PM EST

Dear God, Flavia is our very own (2.00 / 1)

Ann Coulter. Ugh.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Fri May 09, 2008 at 04:59:05 PM EST

Re: Dear God, Flavia is our very own (none / 0)

What an incredibly stupid thing for you to say.


by Bipolar Disorder Democrat on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

is HRC fighting into the convention? (none / 0)

If HRC campaigns in the remaining states, will she accept the outcome?

Or is she planning to take the fight to the convention?

If she's planning to take the fight to the convention, then it makes sense for Obama supporters to call for her to quit. She's lost and team Obama should use this to their advantage. He's the presumptive nominee and should get the support of Dem voters.

And since HRC is planning is planning to fight all the way, the Obama campaign should do what it can to win every delegate.

However, if HRC makes a commitment to quit after the voting, then let's play this out without calls for her to quit.


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

There's nothing wrong with her continuing to campaign, I see little reason for her to stop, as long as she stops the negative ads and attacks. I do however find it slightly disingenuous to point out the increasing numbers of superdelegates declaring for Obama when she had a 100+ majority in endorsements before a single solitary vote was cast. If it was okay for all those supers to declare before a single citizen had voted why is it not okay for them to declare now that so many votes have been cast and the nomination process is winding down?


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:00:23 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

Nobody has ever suggested that the voting should stop.  



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:00:31 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

Obama has been consistent in NOT calling for Clinton to get out.  It's her decision and some people are out there offering her advice (her supporters and Obama supporters).  She'll make the decision when she's ready.


"There's something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power. People who don't want the meeting to end."
by campaignmonitor on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:01:34 PM EST

The calender will force her to stop (none / 0)

This is a small issue, but does anyone else have a problem with this idea that Clinton should only stop when she's good and ready?  That's not how life works.  If Clinton were Edwards, and his campaign had reached this point, people wouldn't be showing nearly this much sensitivity (and if he continued his campaign to the convention he'd be entering Huckabee territory, ie. would be a punchline on Letterman and Leno).

Clinton hasn't lost yet, but if that happens there's no shame in this (and, importantly, know shame in others calling it for what it is).  Most of the entrants to the primary season, erm, lost.  What's the big deal?  


by IncognitoErgoSum on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:11:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The calender will force her to stop (2.00 / 1)

it's how campaigns work. It's up to the candidate to decide when's when.


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The calender will force her to stop (2.00 / 1)

Edward won which primaries again?


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:33:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

So are the HRC supporters calling for Edwards, Richardson, Biden, Kucinich, et al, to be in the race?

Did HRC ever call for candidates to be excluded from debates? On what grounds? They weren't goint to win?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:03:02 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

"Flavia" needs to brush up on her politicking...Smackdown!


by soyousay on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:31:37 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (2.00 / 1)

They can be in the race if they want. They chose not to be. It's all about choice.


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:32:10 PM EST

Re: What's wrong with voting? (none / 0)

It's fine if she wants to stay in, but there is much better chance that Obama will be her parties nominee. If it's a respectful, if she's not trying to tear down the person she's going to have to turn around and tell everyone to vote for in a month, stay in.


by Djo on Fri May 09, 2008 at 05:40:54 PM EST

Excuse me, (none / 0)

Show me where Obama asked Hillary to drop out.  Or show me something that says he doesn't want the remaining states/territory to vote.


by froggyman on Sat May 10, 2008 at 04:11:19 PM EST

Nothing's wrong with voting, but your question is. (none / 0)

I'd like to address this especially because I haven't called for Clinton to drop out, but have been repeatedly accused of doing so.

I have explained why Obama has won and Clinton has no chance (short of a giant unexpected bombshell of the sort where it wouldn't matter if she'd suspended her campaign already); I have called on people to stop voting for her even if they'd have preferred her; and I have explained why I think a convention fight would be very harmful, while knowing who our nominee is in time to plan the convention that way would be very helpful.  Because of these things, people assume that I want her to drop out even when I say that I don't.  So, I wonder if you're making a similar mistake, lumping in people who are calling for her to drop out with those who aren't, and thus seeing the call to drop out as an overwhelming consensus when it's not.

I've also been accused of wanting to "force her to drop out", or "prevent people from voting", or "take her off the ballot", and your title suggests some of those things.  That's not even an understandable misunderstanding, it's just hyperbole.  To be clear, if Clinton suspends her campaign:

  1. It should be by her own choice, not force
  2. She would remain on the ballot wherever she qualified
  3. Primaries would still be held as scheduled and people could still vote for her.

So the real question is, "what's wrong with continued campaigning after having already lost?"  Since your premise (and a true one) is that we know Obama has already won, what those people who call on her to drop out are implicitly saying is "she should not continue campaigning because she has lost".  That's not my position, but it is their position.  That is the question you should be asking.  You'll find that it's not a ridiculous position.  Although I don't agree with it, there are reasonable arguments to be made for it.


by cos on Sun May 11, 2008 at 10:33:15 AM EST


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